Official Luthiers Forum!

Hesh, thanks for the info about fretboard removal, if I ever need to do this I will try a heat lamp.

_________________
久保
美智え

Hey Hesh,
I didn't figure you would just blaze a heat lamp on the top of a guitar... I kind of figured you did what I use to do and that is use a couple thickness of corrugated cardboard with that aluminum tape (yes I know the stuff... I use it for many things). I just wasn't sure you may have never heard of using this ceramic blanket. I do know about the transfer of heat through the frets but honestly I have never run into an issue yet by doing it the way I do.

Cheers,
Bob

Thank you for everyone who responded.

I sent my second pm to Lance earlier last Monday and hope will hear from him shortly.

During last week, I've been talking with someone who used an iron before. He says it could be hard to start with and moves very slow with a clothes iron and a heat lamp could also be time consuming in heating up to a proper temperature for removal.

I do hope this topic could be continued as it's always interesting to know the different ways to get the same thing done.

Thank you for reading this post.

Best Regards,

Johnny

You are very welcome my friend!

Not so fast there Johnny..... If anyone said that a heat lamp takes longer than a blanket they are incorrect.

I can have my bridges ready for removal in a little over one minute using a 250W heat lamp with a small reflector. I do it every week, often more than once a week. How many bridges have you ever removed AND without lifting copious amounts of top fibers if any???

A heat lamp is instant heat especially when positioned perhaps 1/2" from bridge to bulb. Of course I stand there the entire time too because of the fire risk. If the lamp is not on - it's unplugged, a good rule to follow.

The heat lamp is our preference, not a work around, not because we don't have one of your blankets, we have custom made cartridge loaded heating cauls and prefer the heat lamp. We also have blankets and they have not been used since the cows came home...

We also prefer the heat lamp for fret board extensions as well also just like with bridges using custom made reflective shields to protect the top.

A few days does not go by for us when we are not removing a bridge, fret board extension, etc. Our shop is high volume, very busy, and we do great work as well. I can't remember the last time that we bubbled finish using a heat lamp either.

I appreciate that you wish to promote your products but you also might consider speaking with folks who know what they are doing, do it all of the time, and have a great deal of experience with your potential market. At the very least please do not summarily dismiss the methods of pro Luthiers because we are not a prospect for your product.

I also understand that tone is difficult to assess on an Internet forum. I wish you well, am not interested in your product, believe strongly that a heat lamp is faster, safer (because damage often occurs attempting to remove a bridge or extension when it is NOT hot enough...), far less expensive, and available locally for most anyone here.

So no hard feelings my friend, you are simply wrong in your assertions.

Thanks

I've used a heat gun to soften glue joints -- but a heat lamp with an amiable goose neck sounds like an even better idea.

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Hi ya Ken.

We are grieving the loss of the Mikita "variable temp" heat guns that they no longer make. We have two and they work great especially for things like regluing bindings that have shrunk. Once you know the temp that works best and is below the flash point of the material (vintage instrument bindings) the Mikitas permit you to dial in that temp, make a mark on them (ours are silver.... ) and the gun holds steady temps very well.

A blanket on a fret board extension is going to be in contact more so with the frets than the board because the frets are obstructions to the board. Since the blanket uses conduction we all know that conduction works best with direct contact and no air space between heater and desired surface to heat.

With a heat lamp all of this is moot since the light heats the surfaces directly including the entire surface of the extension, bridge, whatever. It's faster because of this and if speed is not someone's bag getting a uniformly heated surface greatly prevents tearing up top fibers under the extension or bridge because the glue has not started to get all gooey and stinky.... Nothing like the smell of old HHG and BRW oils being heated in the morning...

It should also be mentioned that for many cheap, imports with thick poly finishes no heat is required at all in some instances. The cold-cock, special chisel method has been also used for decades even on Martins although it's frowned upon these days on valuable instruments.

There are also import manufacturers who don't even remove finish under the extension or bridge and simply super glue the parts directly in the finish.... The chisel works great there too and so too does a tomahawk as evidenced in one of our less than serious videos where Dave Collins uses a tomahawk and chisel to cleanly remove a bridge.

Rick Turner makes great high-end instruments including one that went to Antarctica and survived. He has been known as well to use poly finishes and super glue for bridges directly glued on the finish. When I first heard this I looked down my nose at it but knowing now how brilliant Rick truly is I can also see some advantages. Since then I have also had the pleasure of chiseling off poly finish on my own stuff and others and the adhesion of poly to surfaces has to be the most tenacious that I have ever encountered. It's a great finish for instruments that will have beer bottles thrown at them....

Not trying to give this poster a hard time but he took a liberty with the information presented to date in claiming that a heat lamp is slower than his blanket - no so.

When I post on forums there is more going on with me than may meet the eye. Instead of simply being the idiot that I may portray myself to be at times... it's paramount to me to provide accurate information vetted against ideas such as could someone hurt themselves this this method, is it a sound method, is it effective, etc. Before hitting the "submit" button which hey may have duel meaning on some forums.... I'm doing my mental checklist and ensuring that I am accurate, safe, effective, and clear in what I attempt to describe.

I actually ask myself at times is there anything at all in my post that someone could get way wrong and hurt themselves, others, or worse yet.... a guitar with....

Hi Hesh,
Do you have a photo of the process? Is the reflector shaped to fit around a fretboard extension/bridge?

Cheers!
Nick


(I'm not sure if we can buy those kind of bulbs here anymore, could another Brit confirm? Weren't they banned?)

Hi Nick!

No photo here at my home but the next time we remove a fret board extension and it may be this week since we have a stack in the Que. for resets I'll take you some pics. Unfortunately the pics won't convey the smell of the oils, glue, etc. it's a wonderful smell....

So you guys have restrictions on light bulbs. Are you required to use those fat-arse Al Gore CFL bulbs? Al invented the Internet ya know.... (we need a throwing up emoticon....)

Thanks Hesh, very kind!



I can't wait, I've only taken one glue joint apart and I was in a state of panic the entire time and unable to enjoy any smells! (It went fine in the end). I love getting a new wood to work with for the new smell almost more than anything else! Is wood sniffing a thing?

And yeah, I remember something about light bulbs being banned, and then everywhere (and everyone?) got a bit dimmer! Another directive from our masters in Brussels, I guess. There do seem to be 250 watt bulbs on sale but I thought I'd check with someone other than me. (Just checked: "Manufacturers are allowed to make and sell the incandescent bulbs if they are described on the packing as “rough-service lamps” that are not for domestic use." so maybe not an issue after all.)

Oh, and I heard that Al Gore physically gave birth to the internet!? ... Where's that emoticon when you need it?

The regular bulbs are banned all over the EU I believe. I still find stores selling the leftover stock but nothing as high as 250. Over here though you can buy heat lamps with the purpose of heating. They are red lights or something but I am sure it is usable in this instance. Also Nick, try the new daylight bulbs. They are about 5-10eu each but they are a heck of a lot brighter than the halogens and you can actually look at the lamp without getting a headache.

_________________
久保
美智え

Hi Hesh,

First of all, my sincere apology to you. I did not mean to be contradicting you on the best approach to have a fretboard removed. You are the Master in this field and I, myself, just as Michiyuki Kubo says, would not hesitate to try a heat lamp if I ever had a chance to do this job. All I'm suggesting is that the blanket is another option that someone might prefer.

Then, my deep gratitude to you. Thank you for you great feedback. I wouldn't have learned this much about the heat lamp if it were not for your input here.

As I will also be gladly recommending or asking if a 250W heat lamp is feasible to our customers who come to us for information/advice if he needs to remove a fretboard and/or an extension in future, I'd appreciate it if you could advise for the time required for heating up to a decent temperature enough for the removal when positioned 1/2" from bridge to bulb? This could be helpful for those who tend to be distracted away from this process.

Thank you.

Best Regards,

Johnny

Hi Johnny - No problem and contradict me all you wish - just be correct in your assertions and then we can all learn including me.

There is no set time for heating a bridge, extension, etc. Lots of variables here such as material thickness/type, distance from the lamp, how much glue the maker used (with neck resets this can double the time required to release the dovetail joint), etc.

So what I do is apply the heat lamp while always standing there not permitting myself to get distracted by the phone, a client, etc. usually for about a minute. Then I go in with the pallet knives or Stew-Mac's new bridge removal tool that is great by the way, and I check the glue joint. What I want to feel is a softening of the glue which will give way with a little effort and feel "gummy." If I hear cracking it needs more heat or I am lifting top fibers and then I apply the heat for a bit more time.

Mind you you have to have made a protective and reflective shield for the top and be using it too. One layer of typical cardboard covered with quality, thick aluminum foil, shiny side out with a cut-out for the extension, bridge, etc. Some shiny tape spans any open edges to protect the top.

So it's heat for a minute, check the joint, heat some more if it is not hot enough. Even with a blanket the process is the same, heat, check, work, heat again because stuff cools as we are working the pallet knives or removal spatulas.

You know though Johnny calls to remove fret boards are very few and far between. It's not something that needs to be done very often and this will severely limit your prospective market for the extension blanket. But nearly all acoustic guitars will require a neck reset in their lives and this does require heating and removing the extension.

If I were marketing these blankets I would position them as more of a neck reset tool than a fret board removal tool since the neck reset market is WAY larger than the market for removing fret boards. Most of us who still have some brain cells left, not that I do mind you.... will automatically understand that the blanket can be used for the entire fret board if we ever have to do this. By the way in the last say 5 years we have only had to remove one fret board but likely have done a couple hundred neck resets.

I hope that something here helps!

Nick was that before or after he propositioned the "legitimate...." massage therapist..... I'm still pissed at his his ex for the rating system on music - it's art.... get over it....

Michiyuki yes I am speaking of the red colored flood light bulbs, 250W, marketed as "Heat Lamps." GE makes them and in Europe it's likely that Phillips does too. They are used in hotels to warm folks after a shower in the bathroom and generally have timers on them so perhaps, because of the intended use being with a timer and a short span time on they won't be banned for life like our conventional light bulbs were.

Thanks for all the input on the red light. Hesh I used to use the red light heat lamp for repairing violin FB.Since they are glued on with HHG .It made sense to to occasssionally remove them for repairs and to disassemble backs and tops. Don/t remember using them on gtr repair.

I am not sure if you have farm supply stores across the pond but heat lamps can be easily found there. They use them for warming baby chickens and other new born farm animals or outlets that sell baby chickens, pigs and other livestock. They will also be cheaper than buying them in a building supply store.

@Hesh,



If that is what you are using then you really should have a look at changing to ceramic. Especially if you are using a heat lamp since a heat lamp is much more likely to start a fire than an iron.

This stuff will not burn and it is much softer than cardboard to protect a guitar finish... Plus it is cheap.
[url]
http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=woo ... =&LH_CAds=[/url]

Not trying to be a "know it all" but it is a much better solution than anything I have ever used before because it will not allow heat to penetrate it, it does not burn, and it will not scratch a finish and you can easily cut any custom shape you need with a pair of scissors.

Cheers
Bob

Hi Hesh,

Thank you for your detailed description of the way you apply a heat lamp. It's of tremendous importance to us for improving our customer service.

Thank you also for your suggestion on marketing. It helps a lot to know our customers needs.
We do get specific extension removal blankets , and I think we will have to update its item description.Thank you for the expertise advice.

I'm thinking of making guitar building a hobby and already got advice on how to get started. It's people like you, Nesh, make OLF such a wonderful place to discuss and learn. Thank you all.


Best Regards,

Johnny Tang

Nesh here..... Johnny guitar building is a wonderful pursuit especially if you play guitar!

Something to know about the guitar repair market. Many of the participants have done this for a very long time and have developed their own methods to do what we do. There is a "bleeding edge" in the trade but I suspect that most prefer to use the methods that they have learned or developed themselves.

Many of these guys (meaning men and women) learned the trade prior to the advent of Lutherie Internet forums and all of the selfless sharing and egos left at the door that came along with the forums....

My point though is that for many of us when something works we stick with it knowing all too well that lots of stuff that you read on these forums or elsewhere may not in fact be all that...

Which leads to the long-winded point here: I think that there is a market for your blankets but it's going to be a very small market. We have a saddle mill under development with a BETA version soon to be produced prior to the production versions. We estimate our entire world-wide lifetime market to be around 15 units.... So we won't be getting rich and more likely will be losing our arses at least for a while.

Lots of guys who do repairs do so in their basements, garages, homes, etc. and are not brick and mortar business in the traditional sense. It's difficult for these folks who really may only dabble in repairs to justify the more expensive special purpose tools unless they do enough of this.

Your mission should you choose to accept it... is to develop a value proposition that will be winning to the sorts who I am describing above. Or, if the blankets are not targeted correctly with a winning value proposition AND pricing your market may not be much larger than our market for the our saddle mill.

As such I would give some thought to how to pitch the blanket, features/benefits/sweet spot with pricing/who to distribute it through/ and most of all why using an extension blanket is a better way to proceed. For me if you hammer on the idea of reduced likelihood of instrument damage that would be far more important to me than speed of operation. There is a fire risk with a heat lamp and if I were you I would craft my value proposition to belay the fears of those concerned with not having any fire risk this is of course if one is not General Motors....

IBM became IBM partly because of a marketing philosophy known in the trade as FUD which stand for "fear, uncertainty, and doubt." In short IBM became IBM by pitching their wares with the idea that if you are part of an organization and tasked with say IT selection you will never lose your job because you picked IBM. You may make the bean counters hate your guts but who gives a crap about them anyway....

So there are a few ideas for how to pitch the blanket to old farts such as I.

Small heat blankets are really pretty inexpensive and readily available, OLF advertisers, I get mine from Omega. In my view what the market needs is a low cost, precise integrated temperature control. I use a dimmer switch and oven thermometer. A cheapo plug in module would be useful. Here's how I use a small blanket as the heat source on a pipe bender.

http://acousticguitarconstructionforum. ... ?f=8&t=794

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Great points from Ken and Nesh, I mean, Hesh!

Thanks Mick....

Here is a rather bad IPhone photo of some of our shields. You may see some shapes that you can identify in the lot. As you can see we have to be tooled-up for the whole nine yards of what kinds of guitars we may be working on.

Mick I'll still try to get you an action shot with the lamp on in the very near future.

And yes gravety does strange things in our town....

+1 for the controller. Things are a bit costly. They are worth the money if you have the money but "me no have no money"

_________________
久保
美智え

Cheers, mate! ... I certainly won't be needing that many shields for a long time. I want to fix my dad's guitar myself but I wouldn't work on anyone else's. I suppose I need to get some project guitars to start practicing on!

Quite tempted by that ceramic stuff RusRob posted.

How about the wife's plates? I am sure she wouldn't mind!

_________________
久保
美智え

When I find one, I'll let you know! A wife, that is, not a plate!